Ask Auz: Too many healers and not enough loot
Hey Auz!
First off, I want to tell you how much I _love_ your blog! I mean…you’re a girl, leading a guild, and a healer…it’s like me, only, you know, with better wording. Superb! It provides such a great basis of everything I want to discuss - healing, leading, raiding, and some pretty great singing to boot. However, I’m sure you’re busy so I’ll make this quick. This was titled “Ask Auz” so I thought it was kind of…a good idea to get some feedback from you on a topic that’s been bothering me.
Introductions quickly: I’m Tulani, a holy priest and Healing Leader of Lothar US, currently 208th in the US, with 4/6 SW with Mu’ru less than a week away from server first; the very first server first for my guild (stupid alliance.) However, lately I’ve been noticing a few things in the healing core:
1) Overpopulation. We have TOO MANY HEALERS. But they’re, uh, generally, all great. Maybe one or two aren’t. Everyone’s antsy since sitting out half the roster week after week for Mu’ru isn’t good, and I’ve gotten a lot of “should I quit? I know we’re full” tells, or just the constant bitchingandwhining of “you always sit me!” To make matters worse, an old resto druid (previous healing lead), who is AMAZING, wants to come back, and the other officers, and I even, are all for it, I don’t think I could make room. What would you do to calm everyone down and make them realize that we’re a little full, yes, but that the only reason they’re feeling like this is because Mu’ru only take 6 healers?
2) Also, I’ve been noticing bad looting going on. Not just trying to scramble to get “that item first” but taking items over other people who could use it more. I often pass loot to those it would be better or more of an upgrade for, but the other priest has called me a DKP whore for it (I have amassed a giant pile), even though I pass to her often, do research on the items and my healers, and take upgrades for myself still. She on the other hand, like many healers, bids on ANYTHING she can use - shadow gear, holy gear, you name it. It all culminated on last week’s Twins kill - 5 shaman and 2 priests in raid, and the resto druid takes the haste offhand, which is THE BEST shaman offhand and a superb priest one. I had, yet again, passed in hopes that a shaman would grab it, because I didn’t think a druid would bid. We run flat out Zero Sum DKP, and I’m worried that loot monitoring would cause issues, and also slow raids. How can I tell my healers that SW will be on farm soon and you’ll all get more gear than you could ever want without talking down to them? I wanted to make a big forum post but we don’t have a specified “healing” forum…perhaps I should make one? I wanted to also, with our bloated roster, get down who needs in for what boss to help alleviate loot and raiding woes.
3) Finally, and I’ll make this quick, I started out raid leading and whatnot about 2 years ago, but usually only on the sidelines. I was appointed to healing lead here by the old one when he quit without me hardly knowing what was going on (I should have seen it, he had me start leading more and more healing while he sat out until I hardly realized it anymore). The odd thing was, I didn’t get as much respect as he did. I’m not bad at it in any stretch; I’m actually very good. However, I’ve realized over time it’s really because I’m a girl, and I’m younger than many of them. Over time I’ve gotten more and more respect, and I can lay down the law very easily, but I’m often afraid to make big posts or anything because, well, I’m afraid people won’t listen. Reading your blog though, along with experience, has really helped me out so much. Now I hardly find respect an issue, and people aren’t afraid to talk to me about topics anymore. I can also do more than just heal lead now too; I can actually lead entire raids, discuss issues, and stand up for points of view. It really has made an impact on my leadership career and I couldn’t be more proud of our guild and it’s progress, and feeling like I had a big part in it.
Thanks for your time Auz, I know you’re a busy woman and this turned out a lot longer than I ever expected. If you could respond it would be very much appreciated, but if not, I understand, and I hope you know that I love the work you’re putting out there, and you should know that it helps!-Tulani
Tulani,
It sounds like you are suffering from one of the same problems I am. As this is something I have been struggling with too, I wanted to make sure I was giving you a well rounded response. This is why I also shared your query with a colleague I respect, Lume the Mad. In addition to blogging, Lume is a resto druid who leads a guild that’s 40th in US progression. You can find his response here.
Sunwell requires a large variation in the number and type of healers you use and the types of healers that are the strongest for the fight. In retrospect it may have been wiser for me to use some of my hybrids for healing the large healing number of healing encounters and keep the healing population more stable. That being said, not all hybrids are created equal on the healing front and in my case the most amazing healers are generally the most amazing dps.
…….Names are obscured to protect the healy. Why’d I take a picture and not just copy the text, Matt says I need more pictures to break up my wall of text. (See Matt I listen, and yes pictures of text count)
I made that post for the first time about a month after we started the guild and since then I’ve updated it about once a month, or after a significant healer change. I think this post provides the following 3 benefits:
-
My healers know I have a plan - We’re not just willy nilly adding people or making a mad dash for the best healers we can find.
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They can clearly see my raid selection criteria - When I say, well dude, you’ve been missing raids without telling me, they can’t say “I didn’t know that meant you’d be sitting me.”
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It’s clear what my expectations are and what my goals for the team are - I expect the things that get you raid invites, my goal is to speed up our target identification and reaction time.
Aside from the “State of the Healing” address, my individual healers that I think need improvement know what I want them to work on. For example, last night I took two of my druids in a channel and said: “DruidA you are amazing at emergency healing but you lack confidence in your target selection, and DruidB you are amazing at keeping hots up on the tank(s) at all times, but you are lacking in your utilization of your emergency healing spells. Finally DruidA you’re going on vacation, teach DruidB what you’ve been doing on the new fight we just learned. While you two are at it, teach each other how to do what the other is doing, because you’re both better druids than I am.” This doesn’t work with every healer pair, but it works with these two because of their respect for each other and generally positive attitudes.
Over time, I’ve found that most “’should I quit? I know we’re full’ tells, or just the constant bitchingandwhining of ‘you always sit me!’” comes from insecurity or feeling under valued. You can combat this by making the time to sit down with each of your healers and speak with them individually. I forget which leadership book I picked this up out of, but I like these meetings to follow a Positive, Negative Positive pattern. (You can see an example of this pattern in the Druid conversation above.) Regardless of if you have to go looking for the negative feedback go find it. Give them something to work on and focus on other than raid selection. If you have to dig extremely deep to find it tell them that too. Lume’s post also suggests this kind of meeting and addresses another topic you can discuss in this meeting.
It sounds like adding that resto druid back into the mix will strengthen your healing core and I think you should do it but I think the way you do it will carry weight with your team. Make it a point to sit him at first and gradually fold him into your healing roster. As a previous officer he should see the wisdom in earning his stripes with the team (especially the new ones) and he needs to learn the fights he missed while he was gone and gear up anyway. Seeing your previous officer sitting with them will drive home the point that it’s not about all about skill or trust especially with your veteran healers.
Poor Looting
First YES add a healing forum. Go do that now! I’ll wait for you to get back .
~hmms quietly to myself~
…..
….
….
You back? Okay good. Now this can wait until after the blog reading, but if you don’t have one go add the Tank, Melee and Caster forums too. You’ve outlined a classic problem, is having conversations with my raiders about their loot choices important enough to take up valuable raid time? The good news is we don’t have to answer that question. Make the loot decisions and have the conversations before the loot is on the floor. In my forums each of my raiders is requested to publicly post their gear plans. This provides us with the following benefits:
-
An opportunity for raiders to see what their teammates want- I use a staff. Would the Illidan Gavel and the Archimonde offhand provide me with stronger stats? Yes. However, all of my healers can use the gavel with great result. I want that gavel in the hands of the people who AoE heal for me. I wear my staff with the pride of knowing that I’m one of the few people on my. team who can put that staff to good use, and having that staff means the gavel is in the hands of the people who benefit the most from it. My other healers can see what their peers want, and they can discus in advance who benefits the most from it. Do I require this from my healers when they bid on gear? Absolutely not. I do instill in my healers the knowledge that healing, more than any other role, is about teamwork, the strongest team kills bosses, not the strongest healer.
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The ability to quickly evaluate what bosses my healers still need to be killing – When we look at dropping instances or bosses off our raiding schedule, I look at these gear plans. What bosses do my healers want? When I make decision regarding who’s in for farm nights, I look at these plans. This information makes my decisions stronger.
-
It forces my healers to think about what they want before it’s on the floor – When people are forced to make split second decisions, they tend to take something they aren’t sure about rather than miss the opportunity. Requesting gear plans requires them to think this out in advance when they have more time and more information available, generally resulting in better decisions.
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It allows us to have discussions where I am thinking about overruling them in advance – I love my druids, but they aren’t getting Illidan’s Gavel over my AoE healers or even my pallys. It just doesn’t make sense to me. Knowing if they want it in advance means I can tell them when I’m going to overrule them in advance. It gives me a chance to talk to them and allow them to make their case for the item in their hands when I can really focus on just them. It also allows them to hear my points without feeling rushed or having the adrenaline of having just killed a boss and thinking they’ve won loot in their system. Lume has gone over in more detail the hows and whys of overruling a player’s loot decisions in his post.
Compliments all around
First, thank you very much for the kind words. It’s very affirming to hear that the time I spend working on the blog is having a positive impact! Hearing from readers definitely adds to the reward of writing beyond just what I get out of writing things out and forcing myself to take my own advice. (I hate it when I’m right and it means more work for me.)
Second, the fact that you’re taking the time to read and ask questions means you’re doing it right. Certainly there are great leaders that can do everything by instinct, but even these great leaders can learn from other people’s experience rather than having to experience it themselves. I can’t tell you how much better my leadership has gotten since I’ve met Lume and had him to bounce ideas off of and share frustrations with. Don’t get discouraged while you try and herd your healers through Sunwell. Your leadership got them there and your dedication and continued leadership will get them through it. The trying times are what define people as leaders and give your team confidence in your leadership once you’re back on firmer ground.
July 4th, 2008 at 3:33 am
[...] are written to her, so I am trying to respect the fact they are not directed to me. You should also read Auz’s response on her own [...]
July 4th, 2008 at 8:58 am
I have to disagree here, overruling loot seems like a horrible decision in cases of actual use / need. In the case of offspec vs main, or indeed plain stupidity (warrior really needs that +spell damage cloth shoulder set… really really needs it) then I believe you have a valid point to stop someone rolling, and indeed a responsibility, thats not really a reward, its a denial of someone else.
In the case of your healers, all of them will benefit from increased healing offered by the mace, the ability on it makes it especially effective for aoe type healers, however having worked hard for their DKP should your other healers be told they cannot have it? Yes in terms of world firsts giving loot to 100% the best person each time makes sense, you are all working towards clearing that goal first, however those of us behind that curve we work and help the raid, does it really help the raid, and indeed ourselves get into the raid, if our raid leader instead of distributing loot fairly arbitrarily decides that someone else with a lesser contribution to the raid (as DKP measures a (time bonus+kill-reward)/time) or has been rewarded recently already. The idea of overruling loot non-voluntarily really comes back to the priority system, and indeed the MT gets all loot syndrome, which in many cases is bad as the other tanks / looters do not feel valued, and having a single incredibly well geared member doesn’t make a raid when you need everyone to be functioning at their best.
The principle of DKP is to reward your efforts, provided your looting is fair, reasonable and within spec then surely it should be allowed, overruling or forcing competition seems bad, most guilds that use bidding systems the idea is that the bid is blind, meaning its worth exactly what you value it at, and if you want to ensure you get it you need to bid 1 dkp more than anyone else that can roll will do. I joined my new guild and have seen 2 pieces of t6 loot, arguably these should have gone to the tanks (survival easier, more threat, easier on the raid all round), instead the loot was taken by those with the highest dkp at the time, and I feel this was right because they put in the effort. Eventually I will get the loot even if I never win the dkp bidding because everyone one else will get theirs (the joys of farming), however until then its an improvement to the raid no matter where it goes.
July 4th, 2008 at 9:54 am
..yes Auz we are leaving the house soon but I saw the post and had to comment before we got out the door
As one of the healers on the “wall of text” I wanted to comment on how this way of dealing with too many healers does work and works well.
I think starting with the healer forums and gear plans is a must. Prior to coming to Auz I had never seen a request for a gear plan. It was always haphazard on what people bid on. This forced me to really think about what gear I wanted. Because it is posted for all healers to see, it starts a conversation with other healers on why we chose the gear we did for our gear plans. We know who wants what off of what bosses. More times than not people won’t bid on things that we all know, from talking to each other, will benefit that person and the guild as a whole. Because of this dialog between the healers, feelings are spared for the most part and we have become more of a healing team than healers just trying to get to the top of the healing meters. Its not all roses, well maybe with some thorns thrown in, but I have never seen it work better in my humble opinion.
As for the comment on age. I am arguably one of the “older” members. My respect of the officers and GMs are not based on age but maturity and their sincere want to lead our guild to beating WOW. Taking steps (reading or experimenting) to better yourself as a leader or lowly member
is the key to success. The key to making any core, healer or pew pew crew etc, better is open and honest communication. Auz is my boss during raids and my mentor outside of raids.
July 4th, 2008 at 11:23 am
Whether or not you can overrule loot decisions effectively depends upon the guild culture you’ve nurtured. If your players expect to be able to take whatever they want regardless of best use, then certainly they will be mad. I think what Auzara has done is outline a way from the very start of the guild to prevent those sort of expectations, and instead foster an environment where her healers think of themselves as a team more so than as individuals.
No loot system is perfect, and contingency plans for when looting goes wrong certainly help the guild when they are properly outlined and communicated *before* they are enacted. Auzara’s idea of loot plans helps tremendously in my experience. In a guild I led in the past, we encouraged gear planning as well as discussions of gearing to streamline our decisions on the loot council. Those who posted an item in their gear plan were much more likely to get an item they requested than those who decided on the item was of use on the spot, and it was easy to justify the decision to those who questioned it when I could point to the gear plans, as well as the reasoning for those gear plans.
July 4th, 2008 at 11:45 am
Whew, talk about some information to work with here. Usually I can handle a lot of this stuff on my own, but hearing it from not one but TWO different sources is great! Let’s see….
The picture was lovely
And it helps me to realize, along with the whole post, that while I have these ideas in my head, no one else can see them there. After reading this, I think I need to start being more outwardly productive - or rather, letting the healers know that I’m not just leading them blindly onward, but actually thinking about what we’re doing. I also think that I sort of need to get past a more awkward stage we’ve been in in terms of the leading, where before I was just a member and now I’m actually taking hold of it all. Before, stepping up and taking charge was a bit difficult as I didn’t want to step on anyone’s toes, but now I realize that there are ways to do it without being pushy. So good day for me!
I will definitely be making that healing forum. We do have class forums, however I personally find these to be more left-overs from 40mans, and I think that focusing on “healing” rather than “shaman/pally/druid/priest” would be more effective over time, like you said. I’ll definitely be creating a post like you did, sort of like a state of the union
Among that, I think I’ll be creating a “required” post (we have one of these in the main forums, however I think relisting this in a specific place for healers would be best) and the loot post, and maybe a “welcome to Tyranny, hi, I’m Lani!” post. Anything I’m missing?
Secondly - in my guild, we cannot overrule loot without having a -really- good reason for it (IE warrior taking a healing mace or something). Our DKP is pretty much fixed in place. However, I think that being able to list what everyone wants will foster more generosity among my members, as you mentioned; everyone being able to see everyone else’s wishes may help when the item drops. Already some classes are more productive at this than others, which makes me very happy! Also, thinking about what they want before it drops, and seeing trends among other members of their class can possibly strengthen even more (though my healers for the most part make good decisions in this respect).
I’m afraid that I am not the most, er, positive person sometimes, in terms of when healers will whisper me about being sat. I’ll tell them my reasoning, comfort them a little, and tell them when I’ll be having them in next (”I’m sitting you for Kalec this week, but I’ll be bringing you in for Brut in a few.”) I usually tell them this when I’m sitting them actually. However, I definitely agree that addressing them all at once is probably in the best interest.
Finally, again, thanks for the response. This has brightened up some new ideas for me and set me further along a good path. From here I can make more of a game plan; I think I definitely need to be more vocal with my healers and offer a bit more advice than hoping they get it on their own sometimes, and I would love for them to talk to others more. Either way, I’m hoping that I too can be a mentor for my healers, and have them say nice things about me in a public place!
Thanks!
July 4th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
Nin - Thank you for leaving your thoughts. There are certainly many theories on looting and many that work. While loot overruling in our guild is rare, I believe the cases where we do it strengthen our guild. The trick is not to make arbitrary decisions. Like I mentioned in the post overruling decisions are made in advance and with a conversation where the person who will be overruled has an opportunity to speak and make their case. That might not work for your guild or even for you as a player, but like John mentioned I think it’s about creating and meeting expectations.
Rita - Your cookies and dkp are in the mail. Also, have a safe trip! Tulani she makes a good point. Rita has a daughter about my age and, while our non WoW related conversations sometimes involve me helping her see her daughter’s point of view, in our WoW conversations age really doesn’t matter. Our median age is about 28, with our oldest member weighing in at 59 (No Rita I won’t tell you who) and our youngest at 16. I’ve actually found that more than being too young, the most difficult demographic I’ve had in terms of establishing respect is that 16-19 male bracket. They tend to work out better with my Pally officer who fits neatly into the role of guild Dad.
Tulani - I’m glad this helped, I’m also glad you enjoyed Lume’s response. He’s definitely got some great ideas. The goal is definitely to cultivate a mentoring relationship outside of raids. Tyranny is for raid time when you don’t have time to debate, at other times I try to act as a resource and their voice in our leadership. Finally I definitely agree with you that class forums are remnants from 40 man raids AND when classes were more pigeon-holed. I currently have 7 druids - 3 feral, 2 resto, 2 moonkin (yes I know but two of them are on month long vacations) So what good does a class forum really do those 7 people. “Gee it’s fun to change shapes?” By breaking it into roles, I think you put the people who can benefit from conversations together. With such small numbers for the raiding roles it’s pretty easy for my resto druids to have a conversation in game or in pms, without having a forum.
July 4th, 2008 at 7:17 pm
Its never worked in any of the guilds I have been in, nor does it work really for me as a player, I believe that the people we are raiding with will be adult about the loot and make reasonable choices on their own, and failing that we have the arbitration of dkp and a /roll. It might not lead to a 100% efficient distribution of loot, however I hold by the theory that any improvement in the raid is an improvement to the raid, and has the benefit of fostering a guild attitude and support for your fellow players, asking someone to not take an item always seemed wrong to me, that the guild is trying to place itself above its players, when in fact the players make the guild. I have seen too many guilds have problems with loot going in preference to people, and especially in instances like ZA which tend to create an elitist and hard attitude amongst players.
I think you disagree with me, but I know my loot path has two separate sets of main gear, a main offspec block set, an offspec threat set and a proper offspec for healing gear, thats 4 sets of gear I will use in my main spec and an offspec set I would like to have for the times that only 1 tank is needed. This means that my gear choices appear to have a lot of redundancy and indeed I am looting warrior and caster loot, however without having the flexibility in the gear I can have I cannot be as beneficial to the raid as needed. So should I pass all non-paladin specific gear as it may be more beneficial to a warrior (who has a smaller gear path due to paladin gear being un-optimised for them, where as warrior gear is basically optimised avoidance gear for me). Yet the warrior gear is very much in my gearing path, and the exact balance between the paths is a hard line to walk many times with warrior and paladin gear swapping their importance based on the RNG at drop time as the other side of the line can then increase in importance to match it.
I suppose thats really where I come from, I have one of the most stupid gear paths in the game, and some of the most restricted in terms of what I can take to stay within the realms of efficiency and effectiveness. I have spent many times arguing that paladin tanks can tank, and having to fight to actually be allowed to do so, being told I can’t loot in preference to a warrior who has turned up less and given less harks back to this too much for my personal preference.
Anyway, thats me, and the guilds I have been in, maybe if I was in a guild that was not based on this idea I wouldn’t be of this mindset, it really is based on the context of your guild.
July 23rd, 2008 at 2:08 pm
[...] few posts back I had a commenter request that I post an example gear plan like I proposed in an earlier post. I thought about it decided it was a good idea, and promptly forgot to do it. I went over my blog [...]
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