Second Chances
Warning opinions expressed in this post are mainly from the perspective of a raiding guild and may not apply to other types of guilds.
So recruiting a new raider is always an interesting experience. But what happens when someone who has already raided with you applies as a raider a second time?
On the positive side, you’ve raided with this person. You know what to expect from their attendance, attitude, raid preparation, comprehension and consumable use. Sure apps tell you what to expect, but everyone knows the right answer and reality don’t always match. Additionally your team knows them, and integration into the guild should take less time.
On the negative side, it didn’t work out once. Like I’m fond of counseling one of my friends “There is a reason he’s your ex.” Unlike an app, this player carries baggage from their previous experience with your guild.
Generally when I’m considering a previous raider as an applicant, I focus most heavily on why and how they ceased raiding with us. Was it a philosophical difference or a lifestyle change? When they ceased raiding how did they treat their peers and the leadership core? Did they disappear overnight or did they take time to talk about what was going on?
If the player left for a philosophical difference, what has changed? If your policies haven’t changed and their perspective hasn’t changed, then I believe tagging the player again will only lead you back to the same place. If your guild’s policy changed or the person’s perspective changed you should still do an inventory, are these changes sufficient to prevent further friction?
If the player left because of a lifestyle change, how permanent is this change? Are they likely to have real life obligations pull them away again or are they now able to make a stable commitment to your guild. If their lifestyle is not stable, the raider may fall into a yo-yo pattern of commitment and flakiness that cause your more stable raiders to question why they are stable when this player’s mercurial nature is tolerated. While I will occasionally give this type of applicant a second chance, I won’t give them a third.
How was this player’s attitude when they left? If they said unpleasant things to other team mates or leaders, those people may be hesitant to allow this person to integrate back into the guild. If your other raiders are opposed to this player’s return then you are probably better off bringing in a player without that baggage.
Finally, how well did this player communicate with the leadership the last time they left? When people have to leave a guild, the way they chose to communicate and how much they chose to communicate tells you a great deal about their level of respect for the commitment they made to your guild. If they didn’t bother to talk to you the last time they were in your guild, I wouldn’t give them a second chance.
Auz, you didn’t discuss what happens if you removed a player. Yeah I didn’t. Generally I won’t remove a raider unless I feel there is absolutely no hope that this player will integrate in the way I need them to. Because of this, I won’t generally consider a player I’ve removed from a raiding position.
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May 28th, 2008 at 11:40 am
Excellent post. While I am a GL of a causal guild, many of your points resonated with me.
My guild doesn’t have applications, but we have had people leave the guild for x-reasons and then want to come back months later.
Every time this happens, I know I go those much of those same thought processes to see if it is going to be in the best interest in the guild to allow that person to return.
Hopefully, we make the right choice and if not,have the balls to correct it.
<3
July 23rd, 2008 at 4:56 pm
I have an interesting concept for you -
This is my friend’s story, but I will tell it to you.
Back pre-TBC, she was the GM of a guild raiding MC, AQ40, I’m not sure but maybe the beginnings of BWL. After 10 months or so as GM, she wanted to move on, to take a less stressful role. There was fighting in the guild, and she appointed an officer who wasn’t the AGM as the new GM. She moved on to a different guild to be with her husband, a higher progression guild. There was a slew of people who left who didn’t like her and they went with the AGM who had a chip on his shoulder for not becoming the new GM.
She raided all of BWL and Naxx pre-TBC, as well as all of Kara, Gruul’s, Mags, and the beginnings of SSC early on after the expansion before deciding to quit raiding. She transferred servers to spend some time with her parents (who she has a strained relationship with, but they were trying to work some things out). She helped them with their small guild and kara for about 6 months before realizing their relationship hadn’t changed. I met her in this guild, and it was time for her to move back to her original server. We were friends and I was frustrated with her parents also, I was an officer in the guild and she and I co-led raids.
Post-server transfer, I was looking for a guild similar to where I left off. Where we ended up both app’ing to was the same guild she had left way back when as GM - we’re talking about almost two years since she had left. We both ended up as members, and I eventually took over as a class officer after only a couple of months. Some of the people who remained int he guild (namely - the MT and the raid leader) kept making rude remarks to her and allowed neophytes (initiates to most) into raids while she (a member and ex-GM) sat outside of the instance waiting for an invite that never came.
I had access to the officer forums and found my way to our application. It seems that there were still bad feelings from their point of view - “when she was GM she had let a pally bid and win Sulfuras, she left them for a higher progression guild and that was turning her back on them!” TWO YEARS and they couldn’t let go, couldn’t realize she couldn’t leave being GM and go back to just a raider in the guild and had to move on to a different guild… let alone the fact that she went to a guild that her husband was in Oo.
She ended up gquitting during a raid she wasn’t invited to where people with lower ranking and playing the same class were invited (not the first time this happened). I went with her because we stick together.
The GM she appointed, though he seems to have no power over the guild, is still the GM and has said she and I can still go back to the guild anytime we want, something we’re not likely to do because it’s not worth being in a guild with a few friends when there’s so many enemies lying in wait.
What do you think of that one?
July 29th, 2008 at 1:15 pm
[...] A week ago, the venerated Bear Butt made a post reacting to a blogger speaking about raid guilds struggling this summer. He mentioned in it that he’d like to hear my reactions. Bear’s post can be found here. The Officer’s Quarters post he was reacting to can be found here. Neither are necessary to understand this entry, but both are good reads. Both Bear Butt and Officer’s Quarters speak about two issues, the death of raiding guilds and taking back old members. I’m only going to focus on raiding guild death for this post, as I’ve covered returning members in a previous post. [...]